Forum Home Forum Home > RD/RZ workshop > Mechanical Zone
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Anatomy of a Vintage Smoke Dyna-S ignition!
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login

Anatomy of a Vintage Smoke Dyna-S ignition!

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Message
Vintage Smoke View Drop Down
Fanatic
Fanatic
Avatar

Joined: 28-November-2009
Location: Sussex, NJ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 229
  Quote Vintage Smoke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2010 at 7:17pm
h2tuner,
Lots of great info on the HEI!!!
 
I am sure everyone here would love to hear more about it when you actually devolop a kit for the RD's.
 
Especially if it offers an improvemnet in performance, features, and price point of systems already available such as my Dyna kit or the MZB available from John at Economy Cycle.
 
Please start your own thread and tell us all about it when you do!!
I'll be looking forward to it.
Vintage Smoke!! Performance Parts for Vintage 2 Strokes.
973-702-8900
Formerly known as Blacksmith (Nick from Blacksmith Cycles)
77 RD400 stocker
75 RD200 Electric
Banshee triple engined project
Back to Top
ross t View Drop Down
Insane
Insane
Avatar
Hockey Slut

Joined: 26-May-2007
Location: - North GA. Billhillyville.
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5484
  Quote ross t Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2010 at 8:52pm
 I'm not sure about your info H2 tuner.  @ 2.3 bar I have run .038 gap with Bosch iridium plugs in motors turning under 6500rpm, and .036 in motors turning 6800rpm and up.
 The MDS  6AL, is 45,000 volts continuous with NO drop in voltage unless input voltage drops below 12.7  As stated by Yote, the purpose of a larger spark plug gap is performance driven, creating a larger kernel effectively burns the fuel charge more complete. Cleaner emissions is just a byproduct of that burning.  There is no way to create a large enough "kernel" to burn all the fuel going into a cylinder on a high performance engine.  Forced induction, and long duration,  high lift cam shafts mandate a MSD type system to burn all that fuel. With a spark time of  20degrees crank rotation from an MSD is the most effective way to create a larger "kernel"
A  T/F car, runs twin Rare Earth MSD mags. 2 plugs per cyl. They use a 3/4 in. reach plug gaped at .070 If they take too much advance out, they drop cyls. Not because of the compression ratio, but because of how much fuel is pumped in under pressure
YOU EVER HAVE SOMEONE'S LITTLE BRAT KID PISS YA OFF ?
THEN YOU SEE THE PARENT AND YOU JUST WANT TO SMASH THEIR FACE..?
Hunting Igor..
With an arm stretching TC 75 drag bike!!
ET. 36.14 @47mph
Back to Top
yellowandfast View Drop Down
Fanatic
Fanatic
Avatar

Joined: 25-August-2009
Location: Manty,WI
Online Status: Online
Posts: 277
  Quote yellowandfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2010 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by Vintage Smoke

Originally posted by niteowl

So if ya run better coils with your setup-do you want plug gap wider than stock?
 
You don't NEED to run a wider gap, but you can. I don't know the exact theory behind it, but I would assume (assume = dangerous....I know....) that a wider gap would yield a more effective spark. I am not sure if a wider gap would get you a performance advantage(i.e. a more complete burn) or just be an indication that the coil is stronger and able to jump a wider gap without misfiring.
 
I DO remember reading some posts about another conversion that requierd closing the gap down to .020" or so the avoid having a high rpm misfire.....
 
Anyone care to jump in here?
Correct you dont need a bigger gap
 
I have an older newtronics kit on my rd 250 and I have the points closed to 15 thou, because of high rpm miss fireing..
 
It is also harder on the coils to produce a bigger arc,  you can also erode plugs faster
1975 rd 250 to 350 conversion
spec II F1s
1975 RD250 bone stock
1975 Rd 350
1974 RD 350
1973 LT2 100 1900 original miles
1977 RD 400
1978 DT250
1978 DT400
75 DT400
00' Honda Elite 65+ mph
Back to Top
jrodenhiser View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 11-April-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Online
Posts: 127
  Quote jrodenhiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2010 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by Vintage Smoke

h2tuner,
Lots of great info on the HEI!!!
 
I am sure everyone here would love to hear more about it when you actually devolop a kit for the RD's.
 
Especially if it offers an improvemnet in performance, features, and price point of systems already available such as my Dyna kit or the MZB available from John at Economy Cycle.
 
Please start your own thread and tell us all about it when you do!!
I'll be looking forward to it.


A key advantage of the MZB is its stator/generator with 125W ouput and coil voltage is >35K. Although Borut @ Zeeltronic is testing stator/generators for production now. And of course with the Zeeltronic the MZB has a fully programmable curve and 3 stage rev limiter, dig tach output, etc. Its pricey, but its the schiznit. The ignitech system is similar but I have no experience with it.
RZ500, RZ350, RD400E, MVF4
Back to Top
ross t View Drop Down
Insane
Insane
Avatar
Hockey Slut

Joined: 26-May-2007
Location: - North GA. Billhillyville.
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5484
  Quote ross t Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2010 at 9:44pm
Y & F, You dont need a wider gap up untill the strength of the spark falls off.   The Newtronics is not much stronger than a stock ignition, just more reliable.  Thats why you had to close the gap.
 You will need a wider gap, to make more power.  You would make more now if that Newtronics had the juice to throw a strong spark across a wider gap. 
YOU EVER HAVE SOMEONE'S LITTLE BRAT KID PISS YA OFF ?
THEN YOU SEE THE PARENT AND YOU JUST WANT TO SMASH THEIR FACE..?
Hunting Igor..
With an arm stretching TC 75 drag bike!!
ET. 36.14 @47mph
Back to Top
Coyote View Drop Down
Hardcore Biker
Hardcore Biker
Avatar

Joined: 20-December-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1929
  Quote Coyote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2010 at 9:58pm
Just to make sure we have our nomenclature correct.
Kernel refers to the first small turbulent eddy that ignites.
.
To Quote Wiki "The spark across the spark plug's electrodes forms a small kernel of flame approximately the size of the spark plug gap."
.
Once a flame Kernel is initiated, it is up to the turbulence(rotational rate) of the small scale eddies that are around 1 mm in diameter to spread the combustion to neighboring eddies.
These small spinning eddies are ignited on the surface by coming into contact with already burning spinning eddies.
The eddy itself burns inwards at only the laminar burning rate which I believe is about 20 meters per second.
The speed of the combustion process relies on the rotational speed of the eddies to allow them to ignite larger numbers of neighboring eddies, and increasing the spin rate of the eddies is caused by increasing the level of turbulent intensity.
The turbulent intensity is created from the kinetic energy of the bulk flow, which is the result of transfer port aiming and piston motion but mostly from squish action.
This is why the squish band is so important in a 2 stroke engine that unlike a 4 stroke does not depend on tumble and swirl to create turbulent intensity.
Without turbulent intensity and spinning eddies, the laminar burn rate would only allow engines to operate at between 1,000 and 1,500 RPM.


Hope this helps,
Dave
A bunch of junk that eats very expensive liquids and parts with disturbing regularity. It's the stupid 1-MC's fault. Faulty operator

ON THE CUTTING EDGE OF INSANITY
Back to Top
ross t View Drop Down
Insane
Insane
Avatar
Hockey Slut

Joined: 26-May-2007
Location: - North GA. Billhillyville.
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5484
  Quote ross t Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2010 at 10:15pm
That is also why you dont polish an intake tract, and you work the direction of your porting from the outside in.
 The goal is to create more turbulence with the air/fuel charge entering the chamber.  
YOU EVER HAVE SOMEONE'S LITTLE BRAT KID PISS YA OFF ?
THEN YOU SEE THE PARENT AND YOU JUST WANT TO SMASH THEIR FACE..?
Hunting Igor..
With an arm stretching TC 75 drag bike!!
ET. 36.14 @47mph
Back to Top
h2rtuner View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 16-September-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 69
  Quote h2rtuner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-July-2010 at 11:39pm
Wow, LOTS of ignition system info for all to digest, most of it somewhat incorrect.

And, yes, I am aware of the Top Fuel/Funny Car/Alcohol mags, having been doing ones for 5 teams for over 12 years. And, those mags ARE stable with increased gaps. However, it ISN'T the fuel load that makes lighting off the fuel hard, it is the added compression, up to 5 positive atmospheres, that cause problems. Since fuel isn't compressible, the sheer volume of it injected into a load engine causes comp ratios to go right to the moon. This IS one of the two reasons that those engines need two spark plugs. The other reason is, load (nitro) burns somewhat slowly in comparison to alcohol and gasoline.

All the teams I am aware of, don't run .070 plug gaps, they are back down to .050. since sanctioning bodies lowered the percentages of nitro that can be used, the blower drive ratios have been 'readjusted", and, more pressure is being used in the engines.

Those magnetos are so far advanced over the ignition systems we are speaking of here, they have absolutely no comparison between them. 

Also, in a two stroke engine, it isn't turbulence in the inlet, nor transfers that as essential to getting the compustion chamber filled correctly, it is the angles of the ports that enhance the loop scvenging of the fill. Putting the mixture in the right place is essential to getting the right fill and burn. If the ports don't fill the chamber correctly, and fully, we get lean spots, loss of power, increase of heat, lots of other problems. The port angles also rely on correct squish/quench distances also, but that is for a different discussion on engines.

In the early 1970's, we tried a special set of heads on an H1R 500 triple Kawasaki road racer. Two plug holes in the heads, at 45 degree from center angles, front to rear. We only used ONE plug per cylinder. What we found was that with the plug in either hole, the engine ran virtually the same, buit, was extremely hard to start with the plug in the front hole, lit off easily in the rear hole. When we angled the transfers, we got homogenous performance, easy starting no matter the end we put the plug in.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz